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Rand Fishkin on PPC vs. SEO and Blackhat vs. Whitehat
SES Chicago is a little over a month away and will feature a very well respected online marketing veteran, Rand Fishkin. Rand is the CEO of SEO Moz and is a regular speaker in the international conference circuit. Earlier this week I caught up with Rand to get his insight on his sessions at Search Engine Strategies Chicago, read our chat below:[Rand Fishkin]: I’ll be involved in two sessions – PPC or SEO? The Ultimate Search Marketing Battle and Black Hat, White Hat: Does it Really Matter Anymore?
I think both of these touch on relatively sensitive issues in the field of search marketing and the exchanges will contain a lot of substance and style between the panelists. The value of the debate should come in the form of the data presented and the arguments employed. I suspect that many practitioners face these same challenges in their day-to-day roles with clients and internal management, and can find a handful of good takeaways to help support their perspectives.
[Manoj]: Is SEO vs. PPC a cut and dry decision? – it’s really about your business and what your analytics tells you, correct?
[Rand Fishkin]: Yeah – definitely. PPC is so easy to get started with and simple to track that if you’re earning a positive ROI, there’s no reason not to make the investment. The only drawback is when PPC optimization takes up a great deal of time and attention that could be focused elsewhere. I’ve seen organizations that have multiple people devoted to PPC management on a full time basis, and if they could just take a couple weeks of their time and put them towards SEO, they’d likely generate massive amounts more traffic with an even higher positive return. SEO is an investment, but it’s almost always worthwhile.
[Manoj]: Are black hat tactics still employed by individuals/organizations. If so, can you give us some examples?
[Rand Fishkin]: Certainly it is, but no I can’t share examples
There’s a small but vocal minority in the SEO field who feels it is far more immoral to reveal those employing black hat tactics than to perform spam, so let’s talk in generalities instead. There are plenty of firms, large and small, who engage in link buying, cloaking, keyword stuffing, link injection, etc. In my opinion, the vast majority of these are doing nothing illegal, immoral, unethical or wrong, they’re simply operating outside the boundaries of what the search engines recommend. Although we don’t use these tactics at SEOmoz and don’t recommend them to our clients, I see no problem with those who choose a different path, so long as they’re honest with themselves about the risks and open with their clients/mangagers. Personally, I just feel that there’s (almost) always a better white hat solution to any problem you’re trying to solve with black hat SEO (exceptions might be in highly aggressive fields like gaming, porn & pharmaceuticals).
[Manoj]: If you were to pinpont a couple SEO tactics which are more important to consider now vs. a few years ago – what would they be?
[Rand Fishkin]: There’s quite a number of tactics that have gained in prominence and value over the last few years, some of which hardly existed in the early days of Google SEO. A few that fit that category include creation and optimization of XML sitemaps, canonicalization of duplicate URLs, social media marketing via social networks (Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc.), viral content creation and promotion via social media, social media profile adoption/linkbuilding and optimization for popular search verticals like Google Local/Maps and Google News. A few of these have been around as long as 5-6 years, but many are new (or gaining prominence) even in the last 2-3.
[Manoj]: In a scenario where you are given 25K to spend for a client who has a brand new business/website, how would you spend it (in regards to Online Marketing)?
[Rand Fishkin]: I’d probably recommend they engage with a talented in-house marketer for 4-6 months (depending on their rate). Getting someone internal working full time on projects, having responsibility to the bottom line and being able to see the company metrics with a incented stake is, in my opinion, the best way to go. As for their tasks, I’d go in this order:
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Content quality and value on the website (this could include things like a blog or UGC, but may just means top notch editorial content)
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Web analytics – ensure that a good system for recording progress and traffic is installed on every page of the site
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Conversion rate optimization and setup of a testing platform (assuming it’s a transactional-focused site)
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SEO – confirm that all content is crawlable, that important keywords are targeted properly and that all best practices are followed (XML Sitemaps, good internal linking, page structure, etc.)
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Viral Marketing – look at opportunities to help draw large quantities of traffic for branding/awareness of the site as well as attract links
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Email Marketing – engage with the audience through at least an email newsletter and possibly more personalized/direct kinds of email marketing
After those, I might look into link building, paid search, display ads and other channels in tests, but those would be the first steps I’d recommend.
Apple Gaining Smartphone Market Share in US
With RIM’s BlackBerry slowing losing market share, this begs the question, what does BlackBerry need to change? Is it the model of the phone (which is quite different than other smartphones), Is it the fact that apps are quite difficult to develop for a marketplace which is less than 5% the size of Apple’s? A blog post over at Toktumi leads us to believe that Blackberry is doomed.
Unica Unifies Web Analytics, Email Marketing, and Personalization
Today’s marketers face difficulty maintaining or increasing conversion rates in the face of growing competition for search terms and the attention of email readers. Marketers struggle to deliver timely and relevant marketing content, manage a growing number of online channels and affiliates, and cope with a flood of sometimes conflicting data and reports. Rather than helping marketers manage these challenges, disparate web analytics, email marketing, web personalization, and other tools often exacerbate them by making it difficult, expensive, and slow to share data and work across vendors. Marketers, often dealing with frequent change, are hamstrung by the need for constant support from IT, vendor services, or other technical resources.
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Unlocks the value of online behavioral data: marketers can execute more personalized and effective email marketing and web personalization by leveraging the wealth of detailed behavioral data that visitors and customers generate as they react to a company’s marketing programs and interact with its web site
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Empowers marketers to execute programs end-to-end: Interactive Marketing OnDemand puts all of the tools, data and content at marketing’s fingertips, empowering them to author and execute email, landing pages, and web personalization without a constant need for IT support
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Makes web personalization as easy as email marketing: marketers can create rules to target customers or anonymous visitors, assemble content, and execute web personalization campaigns in the same simple manner used for email marketing, without burdening IT
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Liberates marketers from the dependencies of complex IT infrastructure: marketers no longer have to rely on IT, which frees up both financial and personnel resources
The Entire Google Story in 2 Minutes
Sramana Mitra: How To Test, Validate and Bring Your Idea To Market
[Manoj]: How does this book, transition from your earlier book: “Bootstrapping: Weapon of Mass Destruction”:
[Sramana Mitra]: Positioning: How To Test, Validate and Bring Your Idea To Market is a strategy book, and focuses on precisely what the title states. It helps entrepreneurs understand the nuances of a clear and concise go to market strategy, a due diligence exercise so to speak.
[Manoj]: What are the major benefits of entrepreneurship using the bootstrap route vs. the venture capital route?
[Sramana Mitra]: Bootstrapping allows you to keep control of your equity, while venture capital is designed for investors to gradually take control of more and more of your company’s equity. Also, bootstrapping is appropriate for businesses that don’t necessarily have to be going after very large market opportunities, whereas, venture capital is only appropriate for businesses that have the potential to get very large.
[Manoj]: What are a couple of strong methods of testing the viability of your idea?
[Sramana Mitra]: Speak with 100 prospective customers. And use the appendix of the Positioning book, which gives a thorough due diligence framework.
[Manoj]: How important are relationships during the entrepreneur’s journey – being able to bounce ideas off of colleagues/mentors and to validate your thoughts?
[Sramana Mitra]: Mentors, the right ones, can be extremely valuable. Especially for first time entrepreneurs, mentors can make a huge difference. But note that I said the “right” mentors. The wrong mentors can also screw things up in a big way. So what’s a right mentor? Greg Gianforte discusses that in the Bootstrapping volume.
[Manoj]: At the end of your book you have an appendix which is a detailed list of questions to help “clarify your story” tell us the importance of being able to answer any one of those questions before you take an idea to market?
[Sramana Mitra]: I cannot over-emphasize the importance of addressing those detailed questions. In entrepreneurship, the proverbial devil lies entirely in those details. Gaining clarity of those issues, pain, value proposition, TAM, channel, messaging, buying cycle, sales cycle that’s what will determine whether you can build a scalable business or not. Otherwise, you end up with a spray and pray situation which is entirely undesirable.
This Weeks Must Reads in Internet Marketing
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5 Social Media Lessons For Paid Search Landing Pages – Search Engine Land
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BART Promos on Foursquare: Free Tickets for Check-Ins Read Write Web
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All Links Are Not Created Equal – Search Engine Watch
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Search Engine History: Top 10 Moments in Search Engine Evolution – Marketing Jive
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Smarter Google Analytics To Track Significant Traffic Changes – Google Blogoscoped
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When The PageRank Toolbar Goes Dark – Dave Naylor




